Neue Helix Bauform (Parasitic Disk)?

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#2
das ist ja eine tolle Innovation

eine "Standardbauart" 4loop Helical kommt mit 9,39dBi Gewinn an 54,2 ° Öffnungswinkel daher, mit 47mm Länge

2,75 statt 4?

wo da der Vorteil sein soll erschließt sich mir nicht so richtig, aber das Basiselement sieht hübsch aus
 

schmiernippel

Erfahrener Benutzer
#3
Ich glaube der Vorteil dieser Antenne soll einfach in der kompakten Bauform liegen.
Aber wenigstens gibt er quasi zum Einkaufspreiss die Antennen zum testen her !

MfG
 

ApoC

Moderator
#4
Sieht chic aus. Zumal sie wirklich kompakt ist. Warten wir die Tests ab.
 

Felias

Erfahrener Benutzer
#6
Designtechnisch auf jeden Fall die Schönste Helix-Antenne... und kleinere Größe ist ja an sich immer gut. Klingt spannend.
 

infinity553

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#7
Schade, gibt keine Zeichnungen, oder bin ich blind?
Sonst hätte ich gleich mal Plexi in den Laser gelegt :)
Sieht wirklich hübsch und Compact aus.
 
#8
Schön kompakt, gefällt mir. Hat die gleichen Daten wie die übliche 4er Helix, nur halb so lang. Wenn ich nicht schon Antennen hätte, würd ich mir diese für das 4fach Diversity kaufen :).
 

schmiernippel

Erfahrener Benutzer
#10
priced around 69$
laut fpvlr.com (kondor)

Hier die Erklärung von dem "Parasitic element" (rcgroups) :

Parasitic elements are a great (and usable) way to get size/gain benefits out of antennas in which traveling and/or standing waves form. Why they haven’t caught on in the FPV community can only be because of the construction cost/complexity they add – but, as KondorFPV has demonstrated for himself, and others like IBCrazy, it has to be well within their skill set.

As many FPV flyers will know and will have experienced, in multi-path reception environments an out-of-phase, or 2nd received/reflected video signal can severely mess up the quality of demodulated video on a monitor (the closer the 2nd received signal is to 180degrees out of phase with the primary or first received video signal, the greater the amount of signal cancellation or interference one is likely to experience) – well, this same traveling/standing wave principal in reverse , which KondorFPV has made use of, can be exploited using a parasitic element to increase gain in most traveling wave type antennas of resonant dimensions, or recover gain lost when dimensions (such as length and/or volume) are reduced for whatever reason.

In very simple terms the parasitic element interacts with the phase position (i.e. angle) of the wave in the helical antenna winding – but now, not in an opposing or 180degree out of phase position (that would result in cancellation) but to reinforce or amplify the original wave. In KondorFPVs’ very nicely designed & constructed antenna it is primarily (but not only*) the distanceof the disc from the end of the helix that needs to be carefully chosen as this determines at just what position, or angle, the wave is “intercepted” & reflected back to add to the original wave.

That in simple terms is one way how parasitic elements are put to work.
In just about any antenna in which traveling/standing waves are created*, if you can figure out a way to make use of these, you can increase antenna gain for size, or reduce size for the same gain e.g. gain benefits can be also be realized in axial mode helical antennas by replacing the disc KondorFPV has used, with a parasitic helical coil* wound into the primary helix instead of been placed on the end of it – in this case the parasitic coil runs parallel with the primary helix (by parallel, imagine a 2nd helical winding screwed into the primary helical winding).

…… another form the parasitic element can take in the case of the helical antenna– and in my humble personal opinion, on balance, probably the best – is the plastic/pvc tube* type that FPV flyers so often use to support helical antennas: now instead of wave position/phase angle been interacted with, the passive element interaction is by way of the increase in relative permittivity, or, the added capacitive loading of the tube material added to the near-field environment around the helix that is exploited to reduce helical antenna size/length/volume in that, an increase dielectric constant or relative permittivity around the antenna (in the near field enviroment) will change the resonance of the antenna.

While overall volume reductions are pretty much on par with each other immaterial of the parasitic method adopted, when it comes to the impact on other aspects of antenna performance such as: band-width, beam-width, axial ratio, front to back ratio, factor (in both receive & transmit modes), we can see bigger differences. Just how significant these differences are in overall real-world terms we can debate all day & all night – unless there is a specific antenna performance requirement along one or other of the above lines, it’s a non-issue IMHO.

It would be nice to see more experimentation with parasitic elements.

* - the diameter of the disc also plays a role. The disc can also be a ring and some cross arms.
* - the parasitic coil placement axially is critical – the position/angle of the wave along the length of the helical coil needs to be worked out & verified beforehand, as it needs to be “intercepted” by the parasitic coil at the correct/optimum point.
*- Yagi type antennas are another antenna type which have traveling/standing waves and can make use of parasitic element/s to realize gain benefits.
*- along with reducing the overall volume of the helical antenna, the plastic/pvc tube method keeps the helix straight and rigid – great if you want to make a really long helical element, or setup an array of elements on a single backplane.
MfG
 

Heling

Erfahrener Benutzer
#11
"In very simple terms the parasitic element interacts with the phase position (i.e. angle) of the wave in the helical antenna winding – but now, not in an opposing or 180degree out of phase position (that would result in cancellation) but to reinforce or amplify the original wave. "
Da wird also mehr Energie abgestrahlt als vom Sender erzeugt wird. Interessanter Ansatz als Freie-Energie Generator. Deswegen vielleicht das massig vorhandene Plastik zur Dämpfung...

Zuerst dachte ich es wäre das Termostat aus einem Autokühler :) (s.u.)

Ich bin auf Messergebnisse gespannt. Wobei aber so gut wie immer der Nachweis des Gewinns fehlt.
 

Anhänge

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schmiernippel

Erfahrener Benutzer
#12
Ich finde es auf jeden Fall lobenswert das Kondor diese "neue" Antenne entworfen hat und zum Selbstkostenpreiß als beta Versionen zum testen baut bzw verkauft. Ausser Hugo und Ibcrazy hat bisher eigentlich noch keiner sinnvolle(bzw bestehende) Antennenkonstruktionen für den FPV Einsatz optimiert bzw entwickelt !

MfG
 
#13
Hei Michael

wir beide sind ja nicht immer einer Meinung- über Abstrahlverhalten einiger Antennenformen :))- aber der Vorschlag mit dem Thermostat trifft das Problem dieser Konstruktion wirklich haargenau, dankeschön

Liest man allerdings diesen verschwurbelten amerikanischen RCG Gelaber MarketingSpeak aus der Feder des JesusIngenieurs Alex Greve aka IBCrazy in RCG, dann fällt auf, das es sich offenbar um eine Abschrift der Allgem. Wanderfeldröhren Theorie aus WIKI handeln muss...
Anders ist der Stuss mit dem parasitären Element und der wandernden Phase der Welle nicht erklärbar...
Es war auch bisher nicht bekannt, das es sich sogar bei Yagi Antennen um Konstrukte handelt, die sich Stehwellentechnik mit parasitären Element-Eigenschaften zuschreiben lassen müssen: der alte Yagi würde sich im Grab umdrehen

@Lieber Schmiernippel
CP Antennen sind seit 1964 im Gebrauch bei den Hams und haben bis einschließlich 2006 im kanadischen Ham Magazin TCA
immer wieder Erwähnung gefunden, da hat offenbar auch Alex Greve abgeschrieben-was er auch nicht bestritten hat:
damit mal der Heiligenschein etwas weniger belichtet wird, durch dauerndes Nachplappern wird der auch nicht heller
hier der dazu passende Link
http://www.ve3byt.com/SkewPlanarAntenna/
This article was published in the November/December 2006 issue of TCA,
The Canadian Amateur magazine.

und wo an diesem CP Design bisher sog. "Verbesserungen" aufgetaucht sind, erschließt sich mir auch nicht, aber vielleicht kommt mir ja an Weihnachten die Erleuchtung, lesen macht ja nicht dümmer

so much for that
PeteR
 
Erhaltene "Gefällt mir": Heling

Heling

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#14
Nein, irgendeine wanderfeldartige Aufaddierung kann überhaupt nicht erfolgen. Dazu fehlt jedes kontruktives Merkmal wie Elektronenstrahl und das dafür nötige Vakuum. Wanderfeldröhren sind auch keine Antennen.
Natürlich habe ich den nachgesagten Vorteil zu erkennen versucht. Die frontseitige Kupferscheibe könnte man unglücklicherweise als Sekundärreflektor einer Backfireantenne interpretieren, ist es aber nicht. Diese Scheibe am Ende der Helix kann nur kapazitiv wirken und die Antenne elektrisch verlängern. Diese Prinzip ist bei Antennen-Platzproblemen geläufig und stets mit Verlusten behaftet. Ob diese Scheibe dann noch zircular strahlt wissen nur wenige Schamanen im Tibet.
Hübsch sieht sie allemal aus. Das macht schon Eindruck. Das im umgebenden, gut gestylten, Acrylglas irgendeine technische Innovation versteckt ist, wäre der Hammer. Ich lasse mich gerne überraschen.
 

KondorFPV

Neuer Benutzer
#15
I am sorry you think this way. The parasitic disk does NOT do miracles but it actually makes the axial ratio better then the helix alone. The parasitic disk is not only to increase gain, and in this case "recover" gain, but also to change the axial ratio characteristics to more favorable ones.

The Helix I built, of course was developed by other antenna designers, but what we do is do the actual work of modeling them for FPV frequencies, and that is not so simple.
As you might know, the gain of helix atennas of the same number of turns changes with frequencies, therefore a 3 turn 5.8GHz helix has more gain than a 3 turn 900MHz helix, this means that all distances have to be recalculated.

Also it's not true that we do not have instrumentation. I personally use older HP Spectrum Analyzer 8565a, and use a signal generator HP 8683a. These are old but VERY accurate instruments.

While in order to obtain very precise measurements you'd need access to an anechoic chamber, it's also true that if care is taken, good near field measurements can be taken, and what is most important, ideas can be validated or dismissed.

You can see real time parameters like Axial ratio, and you can see real time the effect on gain of adding a parasitic element to an antenna, so you can find out if there is actually a better figure or a worse figure.

In the case of the parasitic helix , it without the copper disk had an elliptical axial ratio, which was quite severe.

The helix was kept small by using less than optimal pitch angle, actually less than half the pitch angle of regular helix theory would suggest. The gain was about 8.5dBi in the vertical axis and about 7dBi in the horizontal axis, by moving the disk closer and closer I could see many variations of gain and axial ratio. I stopped when I saw a very good axial ratio. Now gain is above 9 both horizontally and vertically, and that is pretty good. It's not a miracle, but definitely it's a compact antenna, 84mm length for 1.2 GHz that has a good gain figure with very circular polarization that is good for 25-30km with the right setup.
At least you don't need a minivan to bring this antenna to the field, you can even go fly with your porsche turbo :)
 

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Heling

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#16
@KondorFPV
for a better understand I need facts like the 3dB pitch angle, antenna patterns or an EZNEC file. All this parameter are not visible on the nice pictures. 8dbi ist not so much and equals to a same sized patchantenna. I belive the parasitic element harms the circular pattern at all.
 

KondorFPV

Neuer Benutzer
#17
@KondorFPV
for a better understand I need facts like the 3dB pitch angle, antenna patterns or an EZNEC file. All this parameter are not visible on the nice pictures. 8dbi ist not so much and equals to a same sized patchantenna. I belive the parasitic element harms the circular pattern at all.
You can see the patterns here:

http://www.getfpv.com/5-8ghz-9-3dbic-parasitic-helix-90-degree-sma.html

If you believe the parasitic element harms the CP, then you are plain wrong, it actually makes the pattern more circular, otherwise you diasgree with my Spectrum Analyzer, actually you disagree with HP/Agilent.

The antenna is 9.3 dBi gain, not 8dBi, and has very good circular polarization, and it's so compact compared to regular helix.
Regular helix antenna has a pitch angle beween 11 and 13°, this one is about 5° pitch, less than half the length. This is a compromise, and it gives some penalties in terms of optimum gain. The parasitic disk serves the purpose of recovering some of the gain lost, making it more similar to a 3 turn helix of regular pitch, but it's half the size. Not only it does this, but has a BETTER not WORSE axial ratio compared to a regular 3 turns. Of course if you put a parasitic disk without a spectrum analizer then it could ruin the Circular pattern, or make the antenna LP altogether, but as you get closer and closer an optimum distance is found that corrects the elliptic pattern and makes it more circular, and H and V polarization matches quite nicely.

For 5.8 it's probably very little space saving, but for 1.2 it's a lot of space saving.

I would go as far as making a video of how it performs when I use a dipole as a transmit antenna and I rotate the dipole, the difference between V and H axis is about .5dB, with no disk the difference was more as I just stated.

As I say, people expecting this to replace a 7 or 8 turns are going to be disappointed, but if you are replacing your large 3-4 turns, this is LESS then half the size and will get you the same distance.
Tony M
FPVLR.COM - owner
 

kritzelkratzel

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#18
Honestly speaking, I am not the hardcore FPV user, who is always keen on using the ultimate, best-performing, payable cutting-edge technology FPV gear. I even don't have a RC-controlled air vehicle (which is quite weird for a member of this community). I have only my lousy RC-crawler that is enough for my 3D-FPV-camera development activities. However, if I was looking for a nice, small circularly polarized antenna for all-day and instant FPV-fun, I definitely would give this antenna a try.

One can argue that it is a bit pricey, but the key antenna characteristics (gain, axial ratio, impedance match) over the relevant ISM 5g8 frequency range impress me. An axial ratio of less then one dB at center frequency - that's pretty cool. An impedance match of roughly -20dB, what else are we looking for? A discrimination between RHCP and LHCP of about 23dB - was this ever outperfomed with other popular FPV antenna configurations? IBCrazy's Crosshair antenna, about 17dB? Simulations only, anyone measured yet?

If the parasitic patch was responsible for "harming the circular pattern" - where is the evidence? I don't see any. Good job, Tony.


Just my two cents.
 

Heling

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#20
Vielleicht bekommst du die Maße vom Entwickler - er vertreibt das Ding schon lange nicht mehr...
 
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FPV1

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